Carolien Vos - 2023-05-22 13:51:04
Hi everyone, I'm  Carolien Vos from the RIPE NCC. This chat panel is meant for discussion ONLY.  If you have questions for the speaker and you want the session chair to read it out, please write it in the Q&A window also stating your affiliation. Otherwise, you can ask questions using the microphone icon.         
Please note that all chat transcripts will be archived and made available to the public on 
The RIPE Code of Conduct you find here:

Florian Streibelt - 2023-05-22 14:02:34
Who am I, and if yes, how many?

Petra Zeidler - 2023-05-22 14:03:55
Florian: you are a multitude, of course

Petra Zeidler - 2023-05-22 14:07:17
has it started and I should kick my webbrowser, or are we taking the academic quarter?

Derk-Jan Karrenbeld - 2023-05-22 14:07:28
It as started

Sabine Meyer - 2023-05-22 14:07:31
kick it :)

Carolien Vos - 2023-05-22 14:07:58
@Petra, it has started

Scott Johnson - 2023-05-22 14:12:54
vroom, vroom

Jan Zorz - 2023-05-22 14:27:36
correction: question from this chat will not be read by session chairs :)

Randy Bush - 2023-05-22 14:28:39
if they can't read your comment how will they know not to read your comment?

Derk-Jan Karrenbeld - 2023-05-22 14:28:53

Jan Zorz - 2023-05-22 14:31:24
I can read my comment :)

Carsten Schiefner - 2023-05-22 14:37:50
Very straight forward def of an incumbent telco, Rudolf! :-D

Carsten Schiefner - 2023-05-22 14:42:53
Thanks once more, Rudolf, for perfectly setting the stage for the Coop WG STT's prez on Wed morning wrt. the EU/EC's questionaire!

Tom Hill - 2023-05-22 14:50:46
Oh it's Jan

Florian Streibelt - 2023-05-22 14:50:46
@Randy maybe they can read minds?

Tom Hill - 2023-05-22 14:50:58
I didn't recognise him without a guitar :D

Saeed Jenabi - 2023-05-22 14:51:42
hello jery

Tom Hill - 2023-05-22 14:52:14
Mic speaker didn't reference their affiliation...

Shane Kerr - 2023-05-22 14:52:27
Probably not from Google. ;-)

Tom Hill - 2023-05-22 14:52:37
Yes, rule that one out :D

Petra Zeidler - 2023-05-22 14:54:40
who requests the traffic should pay for it. trying to artificially keep end user cost down by saddling the content providers with it is going to cost the end users from the other end

Shane Kerr - 2023-05-22 14:55:15
This always confused me. Don't content providers also pay for traffic on their end?

Petra Zeidler - 2023-05-22 14:57:32
yes, but not to everybody wo transports it :)

Carsten Schiefner - 2023-05-22 14:57:58
On the spot, Remco - thank you!!!

Shane Kerr - 2023-05-22 15:00:18
Right. You pay whoever you are connected to, who presumably pays whoever they are connected to, and eventually the traffic gets to the end, right? I mean, that's peering right? I'm still confused!

Petra Zeidler - 2023-05-22 15:01:54
yes, but that's business as usual, not Get Rich Quick

Carsten Schiefner - 2023-05-22 15:01:58
@Shane: What precisely confuses you? That Brussels once more would like the world to be seen upside down? ;->

Derk-Jan Karrenbeld - 2023-05-22 15:02:15
There's peering, transit and there are Internet Exchange points. Everyone always pays in some way, shape or form, as I understood it, but this is the regulation discussion that would move some if not all the costs from the intermediates to the consumers / end-users.

Tom Hill - 2023-05-22 15:03:26
There is also on-net caching (not inconsiderable amounts thereof)

Derk-Jan Karrenbeld - 2023-05-22 15:03:29
It also means consumers would pay twice or thrice for the same "content".

Derk-Jan Karrenbeld - 2023-05-22 15:04:14
Which means that whatever "toll" implied is likely not compatible with net neutrality

Derk-Jan Karrenbeld - 2023-05-22 15:05:49
@Tom yeah but not a requirement for data to go from A to B right?

Tom Hill - 2023-05-22 15:07:57
Ports, power and cooling all cost money

Tom Hill - 2023-05-22 15:08:09
Though as does the hardware; who supplies it

Tom Hill - 2023-05-22 15:08:42
A lot of the 'debate' is hinged on this model, rather than peering over IXPs or in carrier neutral facilities.

Iljitsch van Beijnum - 2023-05-22 15:10:10
I guess that means 7.5% fewer RIPE and IETF meetings every year.

Tom Hill - 2023-05-22 15:10:39
Or 10% of you take trains instead of planes? :)

Shane Kerr - 2023-05-22 15:10:45
Well, having meetings in places with good train access can help.

Shane Kerr - 2023-05-22 15:10:50
Yes, what Tom said. :-D

Iljitsch van Beijnum - 2023-05-22 15:10:56
So you need to reduce more if you're already doing better???

Iljitsch van Beijnum - 2023-05-22 15:11:07
I'm taking the metro to the RIPE meeting tomorrow, BTW.

Tom Hill - 2023-05-22 15:11:22
I wonder if there's a way to obtain negotiated rates on single-journey, pan European train fares...

Randy Bush - 2023-05-22 15:11:31
i am taking the internet to the meeting

Iljitsch van Beijnum - 2023-05-22 15:11:48
Of course cheaper trains doesn't help, what we need is more expensive planes and cars.

Emile Aben - 2023-05-22 15:11:55

Shane Kerr - 2023-05-22 15:12:15
Yes, I believe airline fuel is not taxed, for example.

Tom Hill - 2023-05-22 15:12:17
Yeah, like interrail, but ... single use/return journey

Iljitsch van Beijnum - 2023-05-22 15:13:22
Interestingly, hyperscale datacenters that use a ton of electricity could actually be helpful to reduce carbon emissions: you can reroute to the place where wind/solar is available. Rerouting the packets is much easier than transporting the energy carriers.

Tom Hill - 2023-05-22 15:13:27
Big enough co. will have "use the cheapest method" to travel, so both work. The French had the right idea, too.

Petra Zeidler - 2023-05-22 15:13:39
no enforced obsolescence by no more security updates

Shane Kerr - 2023-05-22 15:14:19
People can stop using carbon-emitting cloud vendors (AWS) to carbon-neutral cloud vendors (basically everyone else). ;-)

Iljitsch van Beijnum - 2023-05-22 15:14:28
Tom Hill: but making it cheaper means people will travel more. See what happened with the advent of Easyjet and the like. Making a somewhat better option cheaper just means even more travel. Staying at home is what we need, and for that high prices are required.

Tom Hill - 2023-05-22 15:14:52
Staying at home doesn't work: we're humans.

Tom Hill - 2023-05-22 15:14:58
I think we proved that recently

Petra Zeidler - 2023-05-22 15:15:23
e.g. throwing our switches that would continue to work perfectly well because there are no more software updates for them

Iljitsch van Beijnum - 2023-05-22 15:15:29
Shane Kerr: yeah right because buying "green" certificates in Iceland makes your DC use less coal in Germany.

Tom Hill - 2023-05-22 15:15:55
^ agree, carbon offsetting is something of a poor distraction

Tom Hill - 2023-05-22 15:16:06
We will not look back upon that fondly

Iljitsch van Beijnum - 2023-05-22 15:16:17
or cutting down trees to burn them

Alex de Joode - 2023-05-22 15:16:39
the budget of RIPE NCC is growing ..

Shane Kerr - 2023-05-22 15:17:01
I mean, my power company at home gets the same electricity that I use at home from wind power. I guess you can say that doesn't count because reasons?

Iljitsch van Beijnum - 2023-05-22 15:17:17
We could also all agree to not look at each other's data and safe electricity on data encryption.

Iljitsch van Beijnum - 2023-05-22 15:17:24

Scott Johnson - 2023-05-22 15:18:11
efficient hardware coupled with locally produced renewable energy is the solution.

Scott Johnson - 2023-05-22 15:18:27
my AS runs on off-grid solar, and requires no cooling.

Tom Hill - 2023-05-22 15:18:28
I know it's past midday, but it's not good to drink beer this early @Iljitsch :p

Scott Johnson - 2023-05-22 15:19:23
don't make power consumption an afterthought to network design.

Randy Bush - 2023-05-22 15:20:17
amortize equipment for 10% longer

Shane Kerr - 2023-05-22 15:20:31
It's a good idea Randy!

Tom Hill - 2023-05-22 15:20:57
Until the vendors EoL it

Alex de Joode - 2023-05-22 15:21:15
Well: we are going to dei soon (ever since the beginning of history)

Shane Kerr - 2023-05-22 15:21:19
My printer at home hasn't had a firmware update in ages, so I took it off the LAN and put it behind an old Raspberry Pi 2 I have lying around. :-D

Tom Hill - 2023-05-22 15:21:46
^ Some manner of homenet development should make this normal

Scott Johnson - 2023-05-22 15:21:51

Tom Hill - 2023-05-22 15:21:56
IPv4 backwards compatibility, higher security

Randy Bush - 2023-05-22 15:21:58
the last three servers i bought were used dells

Robert Kisteleki - 2023-05-22 15:22:14
mine has USB only - it does not *need* an update... (esp. not one that prevents the use of cheaper ink...)

Scott Johnson - 2023-05-22 15:22:15
Randy ARM and RISCV for the win ;)

Tom Hill - 2023-05-22 15:22:19
"contain your old junk"

Tom Hill - 2023-05-22 15:22:26
*save the planet

Scott Johnson - 2023-05-22 15:23:16
my BGP speaking routers use < 10W each, and hold two fill copies of both V6 and V4 routing tables.

Scott Johnson - 2023-05-22 15:23:19
it can be done.

Tom Hill - 2023-05-22 15:23:22
As many jokes as there were in here, this is a very important topic and the presentation was extremely pertinent - thank you Vesna :)

Scott Johnson - 2023-05-22 15:24:28
what she said. we have been doing this for 2 decades now.

Tom Hill - 2023-05-22 15:24:57
We'll need to be doing it for many more

Scott Johnson - 2023-05-22 15:24:59
run your gear on low voltage DC directly from local solar, and save 40% in power conversion waste.

Petra Zeidler - 2023-05-22 15:25:12
regarding climate change impact: all the published-to-politics timelines and impacts are best-case. The likely outcomes are "sooner, and worse".

Derk-Jan Karrenbeld - 2023-05-22 15:28:08
I will take the bike to the meeting tomorrow :')

Tom Hill - 2023-05-22 15:28:57
'do it faster' I would say, Rudolf

Derk-Jan Karrenbeld - 2023-05-22 15:30:54
tbh it wouldn't be bad if we all were a bit more offline :3

Tom Hill - 2023-05-22 15:31:17
"Touch grass" as the kids say :p

Derk-Jan Karrenbeld - 2023-05-22 15:31:19

Derk-Jan Karrenbeld - 2023-05-22 15:31:47
(also in terms of [de]polarization, information bubbels, it's a really good idea but oh well, bit off-topic I suppose :D)

Iljitsch van Beijnum - 2023-05-22 15:31:58
As to what standards organizations can do: increase packet sizes. It's insane that we need to do an expensive routing table lookup for every 1500 bytes of data.

Carolien Vos - 2023-05-22 15:33:35
This session has now ended. The next session is the Plenary Session, starting with the topic “How Sweden Built a World-Leading Time Network” and it will start at 16:00h. More info on the RIPE 86 meeting plan:

Derk-Jan Karrenbeld - 2023-05-22 15:33:38
Wouldn't we still have the fragmentation issue on a grand scale if we made it say 2300 (Wifi limit)

Iljitsch van Beijnum - 2023-05-22 15:34:27
we've had path mtu discovery since forever. (sure it currently doesn't always work, but the principle is sound)

Derk-Jan Karrenbeld - 2023-05-22 15:35:16
Oh yeah, from a theoretical standpoint I am 100% with you ;)

Iljitsch van Beijnum - 2023-05-22 15:35:33
I actually worked on this forever ago but never finished it:

Derk-Jan Karrenbeld - 2023-05-22 15:37:31
"but no standard non-standard size" ah yes, we've seen that before :')

Tom Hill - 2023-05-22 15:38:42
In the same way that IXPs do renumbering of subnets over a short period of time, IXPs could also do re-MTU'ing to 9000.

Tom Hill - 2023-05-22 15:38:59
The only thing missing is a significant number of their members asking them to do it.

Derk-Jan Karrenbeld - 2023-05-22 15:39:15
Are you asking us to "call our representatives"?

Derk-Jan Karrenbeld - 2023-05-22 15:39:28

Tom Hill - 2023-05-22 15:39:38
I am asking you once more, to unionise.

Derk-Jan Karrenbeld - 2023-05-22 15:43:26