Christopher Amin - 2023-05-25 15:50:26
(Quizmaster's assistant) The name in Dutch is De Zalmhaven
Andreas Wittkemper - 2023-05-25 15:57:02
3rd place :)
Jelena Ćosić - 2023-05-25 16:03:25
Hi everyone, I'm Jelena Ćosić from the RIPE NCC. This chat panel is meant for discussion ONLY. If you have questions for the speaker and you want the session chair to read it out, please write it in the Q&A window also stating your affiliation. Otherwise, you can ask questions using the microphone icon. Please note that all chat transcripts will be archived and made available to the public on https://ripe86.ripe.net/. The RIPE Code of Conduct: https://www.ripe.net/publications/docs/ripe-766
Niall O'Reilly - 2023-05-25 16:04:45
And I'm Niall O'Reilly, keeping an eye on the Q&A so that I can read out any questions ...
Niall O'Reilly - 2023-05-25 16:12:20
... and/or enable your microphone and camera in case you prefer to ask a question yourself
Randy Bush - 2023-05-25 16:23:17
who is at the mic?
Randy Bush - 2023-05-25 16:23:28
state name and affiliation
Fergal Cunningham - 2023-05-25 16:24:00
I hope this topic is covered at the Diversity BoF later. How do the next generation want to engage?
Petra Zeidler - 2023-05-25 16:25:12
one would think that if any community was able to run their own mail servers, it was this one
Randy Bush - 2023-05-25 16:25:23
+1 to vesna
Fergal Cunningham - 2023-05-25 16:26:30
Also, I'd love to see people try out the NCC Forum (based on Discourse). It provides a lot of options, including in how you receive the messages... https://forum.ripe.net/
Petra Zeidler - 2023-05-25 16:26:47
(regarding the "the two big mailbox providers make mailing lists fail")
Shane Kerr - 2023-05-25 16:27:46
Discord is a proprietary solution, right?
Andreas Wittkemper - 2023-05-25 16:27:58
Unfortunately the NCC forum is just one more forum to monitor/watch. Email even with all his issues is just universial
Andreas Wittkemper - 2023-05-25 16:28:10
But I might be too old by now :)
Niall O'Reilly - 2023-05-25 16:28:26
Mic and remote question queues are now closed
Randy Bush - 2023-05-25 16:29:08
i agree with carsten that the asynchrony of email is critical. i just can not keep up with chat channels.
Éric Vyncke - 2023-05-25 16:29:43
+1 (esp with TZ difference)
Randy Bush - 2023-05-25 16:38:25
mailing lists were 45 years ago
Petra Zeidler - 2023-05-25 16:40:44
yes, but if running email is too tedious to actually bother to do, i.e. if we give up on it, it stops being viable
Shane Kerr - 2023-05-25 16:41:51
Socrates warned about the dangers adopting new technologies (in his case, it was writing things down). ;-)
Robert Kisteleki - 2023-05-25 16:48:59
IMO email still has a desired "get to it when (if) you can" property. "you should have seen my DM that scrolled oiff your screen 2 days ago" is just not the same
Randy Bush - 2023-05-25 16:49:15
Randy Bush - 2023-05-25 16:50:10
and not just "off your screen," but which of 92 chat channels.
Carsten Schiefner - 2023-05-25 16:50:28
Randy Bush - 2023-05-25 16:52:02
i think there is a diversity of users. some are overwhelmed with work and need to manage their comms time. some live on comms channels as if they were social media.
Markus Zeilinger - 2023-05-25 16:52:16
From my experience of using many different technologies communicating with our students, participation in discussions/communication is mainly not a matter of the used technology. It has more to do with whether people feel safe, accepted, ... in asking questions, giving their opinion, ...
Petra Zeidler - 2023-05-25 16:53:29
I also use Mastodon. You can read all of the messages, but there's length limits; great for amusement or short info, not great for discussion in depth
Carsten Schiefner - 2023-05-25 16:55:43
@Markus: Interesting. What are reasons that this appears to be different wrt. the various ways to do so.
Carsten Schiefner - 2023-05-25 16:56:29
... to communicate rather.
Robert Kisteleki - 2023-05-25 16:57:12
(I note that this discussion is happening on a channel that is visible for 74 people now, will be archived but probably never looked at later
Randy Bush - 2023-05-25 16:57:59
i use mastodon as a social medium. i let it get days behind and just ignore the backlog. i subscribe to mailing lists which have technical content i can not skip.
Markus Zeilinger - 2023-05-25 16:58:23
@Carsten: Not sure whether I understand your question correctly?
Shane Kerr - 2023-05-25 16:58:49
"How can I get involved in networking... asking for a friend..." :grin:
Randy Bush - 2023-05-25 16:59:44
read olivier's (UCL) free networking textbook already
Randy Bush - 2023-05-25 17:01:02
don't go to school, just watch tv
Carsten Schiefner - 2023-05-25 17:01:09
@Markus: You write " It has more to do with whether people feel safe, accepted, ... in asking questions, giving their opinion, ...".
Carsten Schiefner - 2023-05-25 17:02:44
And I wonder what are the reasons that this appears to be different wrt. the various different platforms being used.
Shane Kerr - 2023-05-25 17:02:57
Tsk. Surely learn ping on IPv6 first? :wink:
Markus Zeilinger - 2023-05-25 17:03:31
Okay, I mean participation in discussions, classes in my case, heavily depends on whether I as a lecturer am able to create an environment where people feel save and don't have to worry about asking "silly" questions, feel honored with their opinions, ...
Markus Zeilinger - 2023-05-25 17:04:14
If I am able to create such an environment, people will participate no matter on which plattform (at least this is my experience)
Carsten Schiefner - 2023-05-25 17:04:56
Understood. But how wou,d this be differentiated wrt. The tool being used?
Carsten Schiefner - 2023-05-25 17:06:02
Or if the tools doesnt matter - how do you create su h a wished for environment?
Shane Kerr - 2023-05-25 17:09:44
I agree with explaining things 100 times for you is still the first time to the person who you are helping.
Shane Kerr - 2023-05-25 17:10:02
But... RFC's to learn stuff? Doubtful. :smile:
Niall O'Reilly - 2023-05-25 17:11:18
For me, the "feel" of a platform is important. If it doesn't give me a persistent message store, flexible searching and retrieval, and the means for me to manage focus, it impedes my work. Email (with a "good" MUA!) or a forum system like Discourse, work for me. Twitter never did. I haven't so far tried Mastodon.
Niall O'Reilly - 2023-05-25 17:12:14
We have to break eggs to make ommelette, but (to mix metaphors) mustn't throw out the baby with the bathwater ...
Fergal Cunningham - 2023-05-25 17:16:09
I think an important thing to consider is that not everything is for everyone, and trying to focus on one channel or method that appeals to everyone is just not going to work. By trying to create a channel that works for everyone, you might just end up creating something that appeals to no one.
Markus Zeilinger - 2023-05-25 17:17:17
@Carsten: Good question, always different for different groups of people. Personal contact is important IMHO, for example with groups that only meet online IMHO it's much more difficult to create a good environment. For me as a lecturer it is also important to put myself on some kind of the same level (for example I am "per du" with all my students), reacting to questions in time, taking questions serious, ...
Shane Kerr - 2023-05-25 17:18:31
Cool approach (from the Q&A) Markus!
Carsten Schiefner - 2023-05-25 17:19:23
Carsten Schiefner - 2023-05-25 17:20:17
Thanks, Markus - better understood now. :-)
Petra Zeidler - 2023-05-25 17:21:08
re smtp, trying to solve a social problem with technical measures does not work, news at 11
Shane Kerr - 2023-05-25 17:21:23
I run my own e-mail servers, and it is a lot of knowledge needed for sure. :pensive:
Niall O'Reilly - 2023-05-25 17:21:41
@Fergal: agreed. There isn't a single channel which will deliver for everyone. I think we need a system which can drive a number of channels, so that we can have to each different "subscriber" over their preferred channel.
Markus Zeilinger - 2023-05-25 17:23:27
@Shane: Thanks, it is quite uncommon (there is only one textbook following this approach AFAIK), we are doing it since 2020, I really feel excited about it.
Shane Kerr - 2023-05-25 17:23:27
Niall, I don't know if that is realistic. Different modes of communication are different qualitatively and cannot always be mapped to each other. I think that is okay though, just that we should not try to force it....
Niall O'Reilly - 2023-05-25 17:25:17
@Shane, yes and no ... 8-)
Shane Kerr - 2023-05-25 17:25:45
Markus Zeilinger - 2023-05-25 17:27:55
The book mentioned by Urban, "Kurose & Ross, Computer Networking - A Top-Down Approach" is AFAIK the only book following a Top-Down approach based on OSI.
Niall O'Reilly - 2023-05-25 17:28:08
Plenty of scope for following up on the RIPE list ...
Fergal Cunningham - 2023-05-25 17:28:54
Mapping one channel to another has big issues for me. I use Twitter, but I wouldn't tweet if I knew my message was going to another social channel. I'll happily use one rather than try figure out who's getting what message where and if my message works in different places. I think that creates a barrier. I write my emails differently than my tweets or forum posts - it's hard to figure a good message that suits different channels.
Randy Bush - 2023-05-25 17:30:21
mapping twitter/discord to a mail list turns the list into twitter.
Niall O'Reilly - 2023-05-25 17:30:31
Jelena Ćosić - 2023-05-25 17:30:40
This session has now ended. The next session is Diversity in Tech and it will start at 18:00. More info on the RIPE 86 meeting plan: https://ripe86.ripe.net/attend/diversity/diversity-in-tech. Hope to see you there!
Fergal Cunningham - 2023-05-25 17:31:14
+1 Randy. Knowing when to use which channel for what is the most important thing. We all do it anyway :)
Randy Bush - 2023-05-25 17:31:18
mailing lists have been going for 45+ years. ops irc channels for 25. they run in parallel. you subscribe to what you want and have time for
Randy Bush - 2023-05-25 17:32:18
how much community time and energy will we put into reinventing irc?